Curse

TheHaxor · Dec 21, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

As I've said and will repeat until my death, if you're going to use a big prot in 4v4 then use spirit bond. Protective spirit is inferior to another small prot in almost every single case, at least spirit bond does something useful for you if they do 60+ damage.

SoA is a hell of a lot better with Prot Spirit than it is with Spirit Bond. SoA is the best prot skill in my opinion because it is so versatile, therefore I like to maximize its effectiveness. Spirit Bond is great against spike, but inferior against pressure because it is difficult to maintain. It is a hell of a lot more expensive to maintain on other people than Prot Spirit. Also, most of the stuff that is going to trigger spirit bond (like axe skills, hammer wars, dervishes) shouldn't be hitting you half the time because guardian should be up, therefore you likely aren't getting enough out of Spirit Bond to really justify it in my eyes.

Prot Spirit is also useful for maintaining on that random dumbass who runs with 400 hp, the guy who finds a way to get himself killed all the time because he decides to chase someone halfway around the map, as well as the guy who has never heard of a frenzy cancel. All of these scenarios are common.

In conclusion: there is no right answer to this debate because there is a large upside to both skills and the decision is based on personal preference.

Lord Natural · Dec 21, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Both skills have their upside, but I prefer PS in RA as well. It's all about the monk stomp in RA, and the duration of PS coupled with the synergy of SoA really help a lot. As mentioned you'll find many more people in RA with health < 550 than with health > 600. Also, against hex shutdown, the ability to cover your own holy veil is crucial, in my experience. Without an enchantment of reasonable duration, you're at the mercy of any retard with enchant removal and shutdown hexes.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 21, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

PS doesn't do anything in RA, especially when you mention your point of the monk-stomp fest that is RA. Seriously, if they're attempting to stomp you like you say, how many 60+ hits do you think that you're going to take? And also remember that it only reduces damage OVER 60, unlike spirit bond which negates almost all damage plus some if you get a 60+ hit. Either way, in almost all cases shielding hands is going to be preventing more damage than prot spirit for half the energy.

The only upsides would be the guy running frenzy without a cancel and as a cover enchant. Not enough warriors use frenzy (because most bad players think frenzy is bad) so I really wouldn't take it just for that, and prot spirit is also pretty bad as a cover enchant with the 10e cost. If you're using it primarily as a cover enchant, bring vigorous spirit or try to watch the enchant removal and use a small prot to cover when needed.

Washi · Dec 21, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

PS and SB are to much for RA, you really won't have much use for them. Better get some small prots/stances in their place.

bungusmaximus · Dec 21, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I like SB on a frenzying warrior. I used to leave the skill alone too, but dervishes and hammer warriors make it a must have imho. Monk stomp gets owned with block stances/guardian rather then with big prots.

ender6 · Dec 21, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Rit/D

Restoration 14 | Communing 10 | Earth ~9
Weapon set: nothing special (you should be using mighty was vorizun continuiously)
Runes: minors.
Inscriptions: Survivors.

[skill]weapon of remedy[/skill][skill]soothing memories[/skill][skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]mighty was vorizun[/skill][skill]pain[/skill][skill]conviction[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill][skill]aura of thorns[/skill] or Shield of Force

I prefer shield of force. Aura of thorns definately synergizes better with conviction, but considering whenever I am being attacked I usually kick in WoR I still get the benefits of conviction for that attack. Nothing dumbs down an attack like weakness...

Draw back to this build is the lack of hex removal. I considered working [skill]pious restoration[/skill] into the build but it altered the defensive capabilities of the build terribly.

bungusmaximus · Dec 21, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Why bother with all the dervish stuff when you could bring Weapon of warding? there's way too much stuff that only keeps you alive, restoration should benefit your team too.

ender6 · Dec 21, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Why bother with all the dervish stuff when you could bring Weapon of warding? there's way too much stuff that only keeps you alive, restoration should benefit your team too.

Restoration does benefit my team -- I have 3 spammable skills. I Could bring Weapon of warding, but considering the amount of hate (and lack of support) healers face in RA I find it is inadequate on its own. I have found the dervish buffs work better. I did do a Rit/Mo alternative to this build where i included Remove Hex, and Gaurdain. At any rate the above build works like a charm.

TheHaxor · Dec 21, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

PS doesn't do anything in RA, especially when you mention your point of the monk-stomp fest that is RA. Seriously, if they're attempting to stomp you like you say, how many 60+ hits do you think that you're going to take? And also remember that it only reduces damage OVER 60, unlike spirit bond which negates almost all damage plus some if you get a 60+ hit. Either way, in almost all cases shielding hands is going to be preventing more damage than prot spirit for half the energy.

Spirit Bond is going to negate around 80 damage on a WoH bar, which in most cases is a large part of the damage but not all of it. The problem is the fact that it is energy intensive in order to maintain because of the shorter duration, as I said before. With guardian/block stances up you aren't going to take too many hits over a 10 second period, thus you won't actually get much out of Spirit Bond. Also, you are forgetting how useful Prot Spirit becomes when you have a deep wound. Almost every frontliner in RA carries deepwound, therefore this argument is viable. Obviously you want to remove it as quickly as possible, but that is not always an option because either they reapply it as quickly as it is removed or because your condition removal isn't up because it was interrupted/recharging. It could also be that the deep wound is covered too deep.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong... I'm just trying to show you that you aren't right either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

PS and SB are to much for RA, you really won't have much use for them. Better get some small prots/stances in their place.

It is true that they get more use, but Spirit Bond or Prot Spirit is necessary. Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit aren't meant to be "spammed."

Seraphim of Chaos · Dec 21, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Kinetic Armor on Monks for epic armor.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 21, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Kinetic Armor on Monks for epic armor.

No kinetic armor for epic attribute spread

Seraphim of Chaos · Dec 21, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

No kinetic armor for epic attribute spread

Only 5 in Earth grants +40 armor. That is pretty epic.

Mr Emu · Dec 22, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I saw some moron trying to run a kinetic armor monk in RA the other day. Needless to say he got the shit kicked out of him faster than was reasonable.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 22, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Spirit Bond is going to negate around 80 damage on a WoH bar, which in most cases is a large part of the damage but not all of it.

And how much damage are you realistically preventing with prot spirit, especially in RA? As I've said before, in almost every circumstance shielding hands is going to be preventing more damage than prot spirit unless you happen to run into 4 hammer/orb spammers or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

The problem is the fact that it is energy intensive in order to maintain because of the shorter duration, as I said before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

It is true that they get more use, but Spirit Bond or Prot Spirit is necessary. Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit aren't meant to be "spammed."

As you said yourself, you shouldn't be maintaining anything on anything. Spirit bond is so much better than prot spirit even with the shorter duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

With guardian/block stances up you aren't going to take too many hits over a 10 second period, thus you won't actually get much out of Spirit Bond.

But prot spirit still isn't going to be preventing pretty much any damage at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Also, you are forgetting how useful Prot Spirit becomes when you have a deep wound. Almost every frontliner in RA carries deepwound, therefore this argument is viable. Obviously you want to remove it as quickly as possible, but that is not always an option because either they reapply it as quickly as it is removed or because your condition removal isn't up because it was interrupted/recharging. It could also be that the deep wound is covered too deep.

Still not convinced that does anything. I mean, if an axe warrior is frenzying on a target you're talking about the difference between something like 60 damage criticals (no reduction) and 50 damage criticals (10 reduction). And if the axe warrior is using attack skills, then spirit bond wins out every time until the warrior starts doing 140+ damage a hit (130+ with deepwound), something which I doubt will happen. I'd still rather have a small prot in the first case, and in the second case spirit bond is obviously superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

I'm not trying to say you are wrong... I'm just trying to show you that you aren't right either.

Oh, I'm just trying to show that your wrong. In pretty much every circumstance I can imagine I would rather use either spirit bond or a small prot rather than waste 10 energy with prot spirit. Prot spirit only gets powerful when used in conjunction with spirit bond to prevent overlapping, when things start building up DP/VoD comes and health levels drop, or with catapults. None of those are applicable to 4v4.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 22, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Mephisto speaks teh truth. PS and SB both 'trigger' at 60dmg if your team isn't terribaed, and there's no way PS is going to prevent 80 dmg even once. (the only ways I can think of to even reach that kind of damage is a 16 air Lorb on a 60 armor target, or a sundering crit on a mighty blow-_-)

TheHaxor · Dec 23, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

As you said yourself, you shouldn't be maintaining anything on anything. Spirit bond is so much better than prot spirit even with the shorter duration.

The whole damn point is the shorter duration! SB has to be spammed to be completely effective in RA, which is going to kill your energy!

SB is great for concentrated, fast damage (such as a SPIKE), but it is terrible for spread damage. It is completely within the realm of possibility to maintain prot spirit on multiple targets for a decent duration, while it is relatively impossible to have SB on multiple targets for more than a small amount of time.

What the hell are you going to do if you have multiple targets getting assraped by big damage? Spam Spirit Bond? That's about all you can do if you take it, which will cause you to run out of energy quickly.

The only thing you have stated can be summed up in one sentence: "It gives me 80 health when I take over 60 damage, therefore it must be better!" You have completely ignored all the downside to running it. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this here because this is not the place. If you think you are absolutely right, then you are an ignorant individual (the keyword being ABSOLUTELY because it may be right for you since maybe you are just simply better with spirit bond than prot spirit).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

PS and SB both 'trigger' at 60dmg if your team isn't terribaed

This is impossible to guarantee in the realm of Random Arena, which I'm sure you would agree with me on if you have ever played there before (which I'm pretty certain you have).

Riotgear · Dec 23, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

SB works nice on the fire ele button-mashers since just about everything except Immolate is over 60. And if they're carrying a sup rune, Immolate is too.

Quote:

SB has to be spammed to be completely effective in RA, which is going to kill your energy!

In RA, you can usually get by just spamming WoH on recharge. For situations where that doesn't work, you want prot that saves you from what the other team is throwing at you. If they're throwing big packets of damage at you, Spirit Bond keeps your health bar nice and high.

TheOneMephisto · Dec 23, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

The whole damn point is the shorter duration! SB has to be spammed to be completely effective in RA, which is going to kill your energy!

No, because if you're going to spam it then it still won't be doing anything. Big prots in general have very limited uses in RA, limited to stuff like fire eles and hammer warriors. Otherwise, you're never going to use your big prots and small prots/WoH spamming will do the trick. In the cases that you're actually going to use the big prot, then you want it to be a prot that actually does something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

SB is great for concentrated, fast damage (such as a SPIKE), but it is terrible for spread damage. It is completely within the realm of possibility to maintain prot spirit on multiple targets for a decent duration, while it is relatively impossible to have SB on multiple targets for more than a small amount of time.

What the hell are you going to do if you have multiple targets getting assraped by big damage? Spam Spirit Bond? That's about all you can do if you take it, which will cause you to run out of energy quickly.

Spirit bond will be doing more damage prevention over those 10 seconds than prot spirit will be doing over it's entire duration unless you have someone consistently pumping out 100+ damage packets (and only 100+ damage packets).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

The only thing you have stated can be summed up in one sentence: "It gives me 80 health when I take over 60 damage, therefore it must be better!" You have completely ignored all the downside to running it. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about this here because this is not the place. If you think you are absolutely right, then you are an ignorant individual (the keyword being ABSOLUTELY because it may be right for you since maybe you are just simply better with spirit bond than prot spirit).

No, what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how long prot spirit lasts because of how bad it is. If I was forced to pick one, I'd probably take a 4-sec duration spirit bond over prot spirit, because at least in those 4 seconds the spirit bond will be doing something to keep people alive.

bungusmaximus · Dec 27, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Fun-as-hell mesmer support build.

Smiting: 12
Fast Casting: 9+1
Inspiration Magic: 9+1
Prot Prayers: rest

[wiki]Strength of Honor[/wiki]
[wiki]Bane Signet[/wiki]
[wiki]Signet Of Judgement[/wiki]
[wiki]Mantra Of Inscriptions[/wiki]
[wiki]Purge Signet[/wiki]
[wiki]Aura Of Stability[/wiki]
[wiki]Signet Of Humility[/wiki]
[wiki]Resurrection Signet[/wiki]

Needs a low swap and a high swap with +20% enchant mod. The low swap is imperitive for
proper use of purge. Fast recharge purge is sexy.Theres usually 1 or 2 melee around to use SoH on, and else you can always enchant pets. Happy KD-ing.

red orc · Dec 27, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Who said GW is dead ?
Just last night I got a Healing Hands warrior in my RA group. And we lost after 3 wins.
This is the best comebackI've seen since the Led-Zepelin concert !